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 Tuesday, March 18, 2008
There is nothing worse than a guy who talks the talk but doesn’t … well, you know
Posted by Chris

coward_maddogs.jpgI’m the first person to say that I love when Gavel Chat readers comment on a topic, or email me about anything they feel is important in the hobby.

I don’t want to single out Rick Asten, who posted this comment on yesterday’s blog:

3/18/2008 11:41:55 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Chris, from what we're hearing now that helmet was likely never used by Namath during ANY game, let alone the Super Bowl. Shame on Heritage for not checking facts before going public with this. Remind me again, what exactly is that 20% buyer's penalty for?
R.A.


But it triggered something inside of me, as to how silly some people have reacted to Heritage’s Joe Namath “Super Bowl III” helmet.

Rick commented with the following sentence: Shame on Heritage for not checking facts before going public with this.

Click here to read a thread about this topic from gameusedforum.com

I want to start by saying, I am a huge fan of gameusedforum.com and have been a board member pretty much since it started years ago, but some of you guys are way out of line, and some are simply cowards. Most of you are great, but some of you are instigators and are bad for the hobby.

The Namath Helmet

I called Heritage today to get the lowdown on what actually took place with this piece and how they made the mistake of offering it to the public without even authenticating it.

Here is what happened. Also, keep in mind I worked at a major auction house for two years and everything the Heritage official told me is absolutely the same way my former job processes were ran.

Before every auction is “live” on Heritage’s site, from the moment a consignor’s package is received and entered into their inventory, the entire cataloging process is traceable on its site.

Keep in mind, descriptions and images can change and nothing is set in stone until the auction’s start. See the screen grab below:
namath helmet.jpg

In the case of the Namath helmet, it came with great written provenance. It came with a letter from Namath, which claimed the helmet was from SB III, the helmet had a very significant inscription (which had been authenticated by PSA/DNA and JSA) and it also came with a signed football, which added to the claim that this helmet was indeed Broadway Joe’s SB III gamer.

So, taking all that into consideration, the folks at Heritage decided to run some ads highlighting this “great” lot. Keep in mind, Lou Lampson, its game-used equipment authenticator wasn’t scheduled to come in to their Dallas offices until this week, when he will look at all lots for the May Signature sale.

So, Heritage jumped the gun and ran the ads. Remember, this is a business and they wanted to get the word out ASAP that this huge piece was in its upcoming sale. Was it bad judgment to run with the ads before Lou looked at the helmet? Maybe so, but they did and that was a business decision, but given the strong provenance, I believe it was a calculated risk and the majority of other auction houses probably would have done the same thing.

Then a board member at gameusedforum.com did a photomatching to SB III and Namath and found out that it wasn’t the same helmet.

Many board members crucified Heritage for promoting the piece as something it was not, but what they didn’t realize is that Lou never authenticated it and caught all the things wrong with it and many more things that the message board member didn’t even comment on in his original thread.

I know some of you will say, “Yeah sure, Lou probably looked at it and couldn’t tell it wasn’t real.” Trust me. Lou was in this week and he didn’t see the helmet until now. Not many people know this, but Lou owns the Namath jersey from Super Bowl III and he is very, very familiar with this game. The knowledge that this guy has in his head, some of you would never be able to comprehend.

Has Lou made mistakes in the past? Yes. But, by going nuts on an auction house for a mistake like this is not only bad for Heritage, but it is also bad for the hobby in general and board members who like to sit behind their computer and rant and rave about something like this are nothing but instigators who need to calm down.

Also, I don’t know how many times I have read on the board that people want to confront a certain authenticator about a mistake that was made on a jersey or a bat and they always seem to want to try to email the person.

pcce.jpgWell, when people found out that Lou was at the National last year, not one single person came up to him and challenged him with any concerns that were mentioned on the board.
Also, Lou will be on a panel at the PCCE with other authenticators to help educate collectors. And when that was called to the attention of the members of gameusedforum.com, nobody seemed to want to go to the show in Chicago to talk with Lou.

I have no problem with someone who wants to call out someone on a public forum, but I do have a problem when people are just starting to cause trouble when they really don’t know the facts.

I am assuming I will take some bashing for this blog, but hopefully you won’t take offense to what I wrote and you will actually agree with some points.

***********

Oh yeah... before I forget. For the guy who posted the thread that said: If Heritage decides to back off the SB3 connection, I think they'll likely still try and pass it off as a SB3-era Namath helmet.

Today Lou determined that it is not a game-worn Namath helmet, but is a Jets gamer from an unknown player.

The person who made the above comment is exactly starting the kind of trouble that this blog was about. Stating something as irresponsible as that is as bad as an authenticator who has no facts to base his claims when he states a jersey is authentic.



3/18/2008 5:33:41 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)  #  Comments [9]
3/19/2008 11:23:15 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Chris,
Think before you write. Your entire post should be deleted. You call the reaction to this debacle "silly?" That's an outrage. How dare you use your blog to hammer the very people that have helped keep the hobby moving in the right direction. SCD stopped caring about the crap that runs in their pages long ago. All of us get that. (Have you checked your circ. numbers lately?)

You just admitted that "Heritage jumped the gun and ran the ads." Go ahead and defend Heritage and their tiny, insignificant error. I won’t. You need to go back and READ all of those posts on that GUU discussion. They weren’t about bashing all of Heritage’s lots. They were about a helmet that was exposed as a fake by someone who wasn’t being paid for his opinion. Turns out that one of the main discrepancies between the actual SB3 helmet and HA’s was an obvious one. Heritage blew it and they’re paying the price. Get over it. There isn’t a person on the GUU forum that expects every seller to be perfect all of the time, Chris, but I guess you don’t get that.

You also state, "Remember, this is a business and they wanted to get the word out ASAP that this huge piece was in its upcoming sale.” What an absolute insult to the community. What they did was sloppy and irresponsible. Obviously it WOULD HAVE BEEN a huge piece IF it was good. How many would’ve, could’ve, should haves are submitted to auction houses every week? More than you want to know.

And the comment about the Namath helmet sticking around without the SB connection was dead on. You and I and rest of the world know that HA wouldn’t dare pass up the chance to keep it around for as long as possible. You write a page full of reckless comments and you think THOSE were irresponsible?

I really don’t know what to tell you about Lampson, Chris. I’m anything but surprised to hear you say, “big deal, Lou makes mistakes.” You just devoted an entire blog to defending some of the sloppiest authentication work ever witnessed and bashing people that aren’t afraid of calling out shoddy auction lots. I’ll give HA credit for acknowledging their mistake and pulling the helmet. It’s called responsibility, and Lou’s never heard of it.

Stick to writing about ticket stubs, Chris.

3/19/2008 3:38:20 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Chris,

I normally don't make comments on stories like this, but yours seemed to rub me the wrong way for a couple of reasons:

1. The collector who brought the helmet's significant inconsistencies to light is one of the most knowledgeable helmet collectors I have ever come across. You claim he missed things that Lou Lampson found easily, but if you read his postings he clearly states that there are multiple issues with the helmet that he felt didn't really need to be addressed. He also posted that he had his doubts about it ever being worn by Namath. He did all this without ever seeing the helmet in person. Maybe SCD can get the two together and have a contest to see who can correctly identify and authenticate football helmets. I know where I would place my money.

2. You make a big deal about Lou Lampson coming in to save the day and verify that it isn't the helmet. Big deal! All the work had been done already. I could have done the same thing if I had read the posting on GUU... which I'm sure Lou did. I'm sure Mr. Lampson is an expert on that particular game, but I would love to know what he would have said if this had never been brought to light on GUU. I guess we'll never know...

3. You talk about instigators on the GGU site. Are posters there really instigators if the items they are questioning turn out to be fake? When I first went to the site at was surprised at the amount of memorabilia being questioned, but the more I hung around the more I realized that they were usually right in questioning those items. I can understand why most auction houses hate GUU because the collective whole of the site usually spots a fake rather quickly and the auction house if forced to choose between integrity and money. It may seem like a simple decision to some, but for those of use who run their own business we know it isn't that simple sometimes. Money is very powerful thing and causes good people to do bad things sometimes. GUU is a place where the truth usually finds itself... to the dismay of many shady characters trying to pass off questionable stuff.

4. Mr. Lampson... this one is tricky. From all I've heard he knows what he is talking about and is a good authenticator... when he allows him self time to do so. I would give a conservative estimate of about 5,000 items that Lou authenticates every year. (I'm pretty sure it is much more than this) We'll say he works eight hours a day and five days a week. That would give him 2,080 hours a year to authenticate 5,000+ items... assuming he doesn't take vacation or lunch breaks or bathroom breaks or snack breaks or holidays or...

Knowing that, it seems pretty reasonable to me that he would make a lot of mistakes because some of the "forgers" out there really know what they are doing. His stuff comes up on GUU a lot and yes, he gets bashed there, but to call the posters cowards because they don't fork out money to go confront him? That's pretty cowardly in itself. You may have all the funds in the world to fly around the country, but most of the posters on GUU seem to be your average Joe and don't have the means to go confront a man who probably wouldn't give them more than "Hey, everyone makes mistakes" as an answer. Nobody likes to be questioned in what they consider to be their area of expertise... which seems to be every single piece of sports memorabilia known to man for Lou Lampson.

Thanks for your time,
Todd
3/19/2008 4:05:45 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Todd... I would like to chat with you on the phone if possible, so I don't need to take too much time to type my response.

The man who posted above your comment just called me and I think he would agree that we had a great conversation and we may even meet up at the conference in Chicago to chat more about the hobby.

Give me a call please.

chris
3/19/2008 4:37:34 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
chris:

i'm the "message board member" you called out with your following comment -

"...Lou never authenticated it and caught all the things wrong with it and many more things that the message board member didn’t even catch."

for the record, i don't see how you can possibly say that lampson found "many more things that (i) didn't even catch". i made it perfectly clear at the forum that i didn't believe that itemizing the numerous inconsistencies i found with the helmet served any purpose. as a matter of fact, i stated the following -

"...as i told chris at heritage, the problems with this helmet are numerous - there are significant inconsistencies that encompass both the interior and exterior of the lid. but two inconsistencies are so major that they make discussing the others in detail moot - in fact, they're so major that they simply rule out the possibility of this helmet being namath's sb3 game worn lid. as a matter of fact, in my opinion this helmet was never worn by namath."

"...but, again, the helmet is clearly not namath's sb3 lid as advertised so getting into that or the several other problems with the lid seems to be beating a dead horse - or an attempt to further embarrass heritage by piling it on."

in short, i pointed to two obvious problems with the lid that clearly disqualified it as namath's helmet - and i informed the forum that i felt it best to withhold my other findings. so, again chris, how can you make the claim that lampson discovered problems with the helmet that i "didn't even catch"?

on a side note, i struggled with whether or not to post my findings at the forum just as i struggled with the timing of my post. but for reasons that i won't get into here, i felt that it was something that i needed to share with my fellow collectors at the time i chose. chris ivy strikes me as a great guy and, as such, i made it a point to try and defend heritage's decision in this matter.

robert
3/19/2008 5:00:23 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Chris, if you are a member of GU Forum, then you would know that Lou doesn't just make a few mistakes. Rather, he has made *so many* that he has become a running joke on the board, with post after post ridiculing him and detailing fake rubbish that he has passed...a sort of Chris Morales of game-used items.

It'd be nice if the guys at SCD would be a part of the solution, instead of harboring or making excuses for the problem children of the hobby (CCSA, STAT, Lampson, et al).

You seem like an good guy, Chris, and I don't think you are to blame for your periodical's current problems. However, I can't help but believe the guys calling the shots up top at SCD/FW are covering up or downplaying the foibles of some of its biggest advertisers.
CS Bolay
3/19/2008 6:49:55 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
cowards huh?
chris, the "cowards" on GUF have spoken critically of practically every major hobby entity. conversely, you're well-known for completely failing to be critical of any of SCD's advertisers or your industry friends, regardless of the severity of their blunders. where's your last article on lampson or coach's corner or AMI? you're little more than a shill, bought and paid for. your only criticisms are directed towards ebay and some mom-and-pop dealers on ebay. if ebay began placing huge ads in SCD, how quickly would all of your ebay criticisms end? yet you have the temerity to call someone else a coward? that's rich. take a look in the mirror.

rudy.
3/20/2008 1:37:04 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Robert,
I will make the changes I referred to on the posting tomorrow morning. I don't have the admin code at home. Thanks.
chris
Chris Nerat
3/20/2008 4:21:07 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Chris,

As a collector of autographs, mostly high end stuff, I consider myself "educated" when it comes to spotting the good stuff from the bad stuff. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not an authenticator, but I can spot a fake on occasion.

I think the real problem with the way HA handled the Namath helmet is not the fact that they jumped the gun promoting "the find", but that they jumped the gun when promoting an item that could fetch $25,000 to $75,000. Where did I get this number? Well, I'm just putting the Namath game-used SB III helmet in the category of 1/1, history making items that people from New York (or California) build a serious collection around.

I have subscribed to SCD for over 6 years. Lots of great information is presented, but most of the reporting is so biased, many readers constantly see the contributors of the publication catering to its advertisers. HA made a mistake, a very large mistake that hurts their credibility and standing in the sports collectibles business. This was not a simple mistake. The item itself magnifies the importance of this mistake and the ongoing issues surrounding the types of provenance used to promote the sale of game used items.

This same issue came about recently when an auction house claimed to have the jersey Babe Ruth wore when he hit the called shot. How can a jersey be traced back to one single game that took place over 75 years ago? When I read the article on the jersey and the provenance that came along with it, I couldn't believe people were willing to spend big dollars to get the jersey. Nobody questioned whether or not it was "the" jersey. What did that jersey sell for Chris? It was over $100,000... Correct?

My point, the game used market in sports collectibles is exploding, and everyone is scurrying to make a buck. If you are one of the top 5 major auction houses in the country, touting an item that could be valued up to $75,000 (or more), you better get your facts straight first. Heritage didn't make a mistake, they made a poor business decision.

The GUF is good for collectors because it keeps everyone current and educated. Remember, the people who post on that forum do not answer to an editor, sponsor, or advertiser. This keeps it real in the collector's world.

I'm not angry, nor am I a cyber bully. No steroids connected to this keyboard. Let's call things as we see it, without bias. HA didn't make a mistake, they made a poor business decision, and in the game used/autograph world, poor decision can put you out of business over night. Just ask Gerry Cooney...

Thanks for your time.
3/28/2008 7:05:37 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
I am not an active collector of game used items but I find this issue and the reponses interesting.

Heritage made a mistake, an avoidable mistake that an experiened auction house should not make. A genuine Namath helmet of this magnitude should have no reason to be rushed to market. Actually, it would be wise to advertise this helmet as long as possible. They were called out on it , and should be.

I guess Joe Namath gets a free pass so to speak. Did he not submit a letter with this helmet?

There are clearly some very knowledgeable people commenting on this issue both here on this board and on the Game Used board. What amazes me is how discussions quickly divert from the path of the original topic. I like the passion game used collectors have, but "share and discuss" is a better baseline than "judge and execute." I guess it is more easy to sink down than rise above sometimes when typing. There are many good points raised in peoples posts, you have to kind of sort through them though, some people have agendas and just use the topic as an excuse to table their agendas. I guess that is typical of most blogs no matter what the topic. For those collectors sharing their knowledge, thank you.

My question becomes, where's Joe's real Super Bowl III helmet?
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